r/worldnews
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u/Zapermastic
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Mar 18 '23
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Use of Chinese ammunition in Ukraine confirmed by U.S. Russia/Ukraine
https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2023/03/18/asia-pacific/china-russia-ukraine-war-ammunition-u-s/817
u/Latter_Fortune_7225 Mar 18 '23 edited Mar 18 '23
However, they did not disclose what kind of ammunition was found.
According to this thread on /r/UkraineWarVideoReport, there were Chinese made Type 63 60mm mortar shells previously found in Ukraine, but they were not Chinese supplied. Instead they were likely supplied by North Korea.
These Chinese made Type 63 60mm mortar shells are no longer in production since the 80's, and mostly likely saw action in the Vietnam wars.
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u/kazosk Mar 19 '23
I was wondering about when the ammunition was bought because it's not really China's fault if it was bought pre-2014 (at least in regards to Ukraine).
As it turns out, I'm off by 3 decades.
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u/bouldersizedboulder Mar 18 '23
It's not like NK is ever going to use that shit. They can't even feed themselves let alone an army at war.
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u/Crumblycheese Mar 19 '23
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/11u5ip8/north_korea_claims_almost_800000_people_have
North Korea would like a word... If you can believe their claims 🤣🤣
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u/finbad16 Mar 19 '23
All volunteer army too , they say .
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u/Abitconfusde Mar 19 '23
It may be one of those jobs where you are pretty much guaranteed at least something to eat.
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u/Krazyguy75 Mar 19 '23
Even if that was true it's... hopelessly insignificant. The US is just a monster when it comes to military.
In the world, there are currently 49 aircraft Carriers. 5 are owned by China, 4 by Japan, and 4 by France. No other country has more than 2... except the US, who has 20, and plans to make another 12.
That's an illustration of how the stats look in almost every area when it comes to military. The US military is just... absurd. They literally have a policy in place to maintain enough standing military across the globe that they can be in 3 wars anywhere at any time and still keep a stable military presence in all 3 fronts.
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u/ProfPerry Mar 19 '23
I hope this spreads if its true. I dont trust China as much as the next guy, but we definitely dont need to push them into a corner where they go, 'Well if they already think we are, we might as well do it.' I'm sure theyre already ready to do so.
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u/tsyklon_ Mar 19 '23
Well, it’s not like the U.S. intelligence (CIA) is known to spread inaccurate information, in order to drive public opinion against nations they currently have engaged in psyops and cyber warfare, right?
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u/Silver_Page_1192 Mar 19 '23
Sir/miss I smell weapons of mass destruction in your house. You leave us no choice
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u/randCN Mar 19 '23
DO I NEED TO TELL YOU WHAT THE FUCK YOU CAN DO WITH AN ALUMINUM TUBE?
ALUMINUM!
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u/wontgetthejob Mar 19 '23
Y'all motherfuckers don't believe me, I got some yellow cake right here! Wrapped up in this special CIA napkin!
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u/Silver_Page_1192 Mar 19 '23
The US really ruined the lives of a million people with an aluminum tube as part of their 'evidence'.
In modern times that would have become a meme.
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u/Crack_Pipe_Superstar Mar 19 '23
I feel like I have missed something vital to understanding this reference.
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u/Silver_Page_1192 Mar 19 '23
So the history is that the US started a war in Iraq (causing death destruction and many refugees) because the American intelligence agencies said that they were making nuclear weapons. One of them major peace of 'evidence' were aluminum pipes they said were for the construction of centrifuges (machines used to enrich uranium) . Nuclear experts of the department of energy told them it was a dumb claim but the US just really wanted a war post 9/11 so a lot of Americans believed whatever so the government got the war they wanted.
The pipes were for the construction of unguided munitions. Just casings like everyone told them they were.
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u/BirdEducational6226 Mar 19 '23
When I was in Iraq in 2004-2005 we were getting hit with Chinese rockets all the time. I'm pretty sure the Chinese weren't actively supplying the insurgents. I'm just saying, it doesn't necessarily mean the Chinese are actively supplying ammo to the Russians right now.
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u/AuWoodDuck Mar 19 '23
Those rockets were likely sold to Iraquis in the 1980s.
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u/The-Entity Mar 19 '23
Also true. But much like Poland sending leopard tanks from Germany, to Ukraine, it becomes a complicated logistics issue to pin down. Yes, it's very public what they're doing but the point is that German tanks are making their way to Ukraine, without Germany sending them to Ukraine (although that is also happening, but in a separate way).
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u/The-Entity Mar 19 '23
While I was in Iraq, (05-06) literally everything we dealt with was old Russian shit. Mortars and rockets mostly, because our sensors would detect a truck with a topper and a hole cut out of it would launch into the BIAP area and a few minutes later you'd hear apaches launching rockets and returning to base. You'd get mortar shells going through our aluminum trailers, and more than half of the time it was uxo. Hell, I almost stepped on one because someone who was supposed to keep watch on it had started talking to someone and lost focus. I got a flashing light to the face that then pointed at the mortar less than a foot from my next step. Point is, it was always Russian made and very often didn't go off when it was supposed to.
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u/cmonster556 Mar 19 '23
I wonder how many million rounds of Norinco ammo were sold in the US back in the day. I recall going in with a buddy on a couple SKS rifles and a few cases of ammo 25 years or more ago.
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u/The-Entity Mar 19 '23
How much did that cost ya at the time? Like $95?
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u/cmonster556 Mar 19 '23
Around that. It was a long time ago and the rifle was so inaccurate I left it with him when I moved away.
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u/otto3210 Mar 19 '23
I can literally buy Chinese surplus ammunition from cabelas.ca and I’m in Canada
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u/usernameavailable123 Mar 18 '23 edited Mar 18 '23
Oh dear. Does this mean China sent weapons to Russia? Or Russians bought them from someone who got them from China without direct support from the Chinese government?
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u/xness151x Mar 18 '23
"Whether the ammunition was supplied by China remains unclear, the U.S. administration sources said, while adding Washington is poised to take action if it is verified Beijing made the shipments."
bold emphasis mine.
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u/DoubleN22 Mar 19 '23
There is a lot of old Chinese AK ammunition around in countries other than China. It was actually a subplot of the movie “Lord of War” about arms dealers.
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u/notbobby125 Mar 19 '23
Russia is openly buying ammo from North Korea, who has a lot of Chinese supplies.
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u/Koshunae Mar 19 '23
NK economy must be booming lol
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u/CocoMURDERnut Mar 19 '23
It’s doing somewhat better than it was. They have been a little more lenient with private enterprise/market in the country. So, that’s helped the average joe out a lot. Including with food.
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u/TheGoldenChampion Mar 19 '23
Lack of private enterprise is not the problem with NK
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u/CocoMURDERnut Mar 19 '23
No, not as a state. But for the well-being of the average joe it is. It’s stabilized things somewhat where famine isn’t as large of an issue as it was.
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u/Virtual_Cod_1840 Mar 19 '23 edited Mar 19 '23
And we can assume China then resupplies North Korea
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u/StannisTheMantis93 Mar 19 '23
It’s pretty much known North Korea wouldn’t still exist without Chinese support.
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u/acornSTEALER Mar 19 '23
China likes having NK as a buffer between their border and American military presence in SK.
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u/stickyfingers10 Mar 19 '23
North Korea wouldn't have the military industry it does without trade with China and Russia.
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u/issamaysinalah Mar 19 '23
Since they can't trade with the rest of the world I think it's safe to say they wouldn't have anything at all without Russia or China.
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u/saoyraan Mar 19 '23
It wouldn't have missles or nukes without Russia as well.
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u/railway_veteran Mar 19 '23
Not true. North Korea's nuclear technology came from Pakistan.
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u/Stock_Rush2555 Mar 19 '23
Turkmenistan too
China props up dystopian nightmare dictatorships because no one else can stand their foreign relations
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u/Mallee78 Mar 19 '23
China has no other option with NK. If NK falls they have a united Korea under a government who is close with the US and HATES China
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u/Repulsive_Profit_315 Mar 19 '23
and that movie about the gun runners with Miles Tellar and Jonah hill
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Mar 19 '23
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u/Uptown-Dog Mar 19 '23
Three incompetent stoners ended up just bumbling their way into being literal arms dealers sending ammo to the US military for use in global conflicts.
I haven't seen the movie or read the book, but for the record the US is all about plausible deniability. They routinely set people up to do what they want to have happen, without those people having the faintest clue that they're being enabled every step of the way. I would wager - based on your description - that this is exactly what happened there.
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Mar 19 '23
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u/nippleringedmarmot Mar 19 '23
Pretty sure the movie said after the incident happened there were more stringent vetting processes implemented when assigning government contracts
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u/keegman907 Mar 19 '23
You can! Just walk into the local recruiting office and sell your soul.
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u/Coach__Mcguirk Mar 19 '23
I did that and to be honest it was the best decision I've made in my life to date. The 10 Years sucked but the benefits last a lifetime for both my family and myself.
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u/ThePooBird Mar 19 '23
Yea if we're talking 7.62mm there are a lot of other countries that could have came from. I assume they have no use for 5.8mm unless they're importing Chinese rifles too. Which seems odd since there are no shortage of AKs. If they send heavy artillery rounds like 152mm, that would be much more significant.
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u/vt1032 Mar 19 '23
It probably is artillery ammo. China is largely moving to 155mm howitzers but probably still has a mountain of 152mm for their older guns. That's what Russia was by buying from North Korea. I doubt they are running out of small arms ammunition. Artillery is the thing everyone is shooting faster than they can make.
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u/Kastrenzo Mar 19 '23
You're getting Lord of War mixed up with War dogs.
In War dogs the charachters scam the US government, who have a contract open to supply the ANA with weapons and ammo, the protaganists bought out an Albanian warehouse that was filled to the brim with shitty old unreliable Chinese ammo (which is also under embargo, which is why they were arrested)
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u/thewoodlayer Mar 19 '23
That makes sense. China switched to a proprietary round, the 5.8x42 back in 1987 so I’d imagine there are tons of Chinese 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 just sitting in warehouses worldwide.
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u/Lehk Mar 19 '23
Did they switch in case of a war with Russia so their ammo wouldn’t be compatible with Russian guns?
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u/thewoodlayer Mar 19 '23
I wanna go ahead and put this out there; I’m a total layman when it comes to these things so I could very well be completely wrong about this. That being said, China is very tight-lipped about the performance of the 5.8 round, only saying that it is supposedly superior to the US 5.56 and Russian 5.45. They’ve long held the goal of being seen as a superpower like the US or Russia (although Ukraine has shown us that Russia is no superpower), and it’s my opinion that because of this, they wanted to establish their own proprietary rifle round the way that the US and Russia have.
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u/Keksmonster Mar 19 '23
Is it that hard to get your hands on their ammo?
You'd think that every nation has done extensive testing on their ammo as soon as it was produced
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u/octahexx Mar 19 '23
You mean the very same weapon smuggler it was based on that got released into russia just before weapons started to get smuggled into this conflict
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u/Carl_the_neighbor Mar 19 '23
I think you mean ‘war dogs’ but I am also unsure if I I missing something. I thought in lord of war it goes over him selling post Soviet collapse weapons to dictators around the world?
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u/2Throwscrewsatit Mar 19 '23
It’s probably from NK
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u/Electrical-Can-7982 Mar 19 '23
or syira, or iran or from that Chechnya dwarf guy or Wagner... could even be from DPR/LPR stockpiles...
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u/The-Entity Mar 19 '23
Wagner has been begging for ammo from the Russian government for months.
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u/thhvancouver Mar 19 '23
A previous article confirmed export routes to the UAE or Turkey. I imagine China would simply export to destinations that would provide it with plausible deniability and let Russia’s smuggling schemes do the rest.
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u/Kommissar_Holt Mar 19 '23
If it’s mortars, then what I saw recently is that these are from Afghanistan.
Afghanistan has an absolute glut of mortars and is strapped for hard currency, so it’s very likely they would sell the shells to Russia.
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u/Anonuser123abc Mar 19 '23
I would have thought most of their stock would be American or Soviet. I'm not arguing or disagreeing, just surprised.
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u/Happy-Mousse8615 Mar 19 '23
It is, but China was no ally of the USSR, they supported Insurgents too.
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u/Average_Wanker_HERE Mar 19 '23
Apparently both Russia and Ukraine had bought Chinese weapons before the war and China is a military supplier over the world. This means Russia could be using from old supplies or buying through a third party. Tricky.
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u/Purple_Possibility20 Mar 18 '23
It doesn’t imply that China directly sent ammunition to Russia, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the case.
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u/idksomethingjfk Mar 19 '23
Sounds like that Nick Cage movie
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u/Ben2018 Mar 19 '23
The one where hes eaten by bees? Or the one where hes conviently omnipotent about secret us history? Or the one where he signs literally any movie contract so long as the check clears?
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u/idksomethingjfk Mar 19 '23
Don’t be coy, you know it’s the one WHERE HE STEALS THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
My bad, my bad, “omnipotent about US history”, I see you covered that one, musta been the one he’s a mage
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Mar 19 '23 edited 28d ago
[deleted]
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u/Algebrace Mar 19 '23
Nah, he has the power to alter the past so that the present is what he wants it to be.
Totally explains how random pieces of architecture remain intact for centuries, allowing him to explore ancient secret society bases that look like new.
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u/PonnFarr111 Mar 19 '23
No, the one where hes a skull demon who works for the devil, collecting souls.
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u/The-Entity Mar 19 '23
Lord of war.
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u/idksomethingjfk Mar 19 '23
Musta been repacked
Edit: doh! Now I’m thinking about a different movie about arms dealers
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Mar 19 '23
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u/All_Work_All_Play Mar 19 '23
A Chinese company with known ties to the Chinese Communist Party and who also supplied the Chinese military and police.
Basically every company connected to the military has members placed on its board by the CCP. Xi started doing this to tech companies back in 2017 too.
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u/tigeratemybaby Mar 19 '23
Loads of Russian cargo planes have been secretly flying into China with their transponders turned off, so its highly likely that China is loading them up with weapons and ammunition:
https://www.uawire.org/china-suspected-of-providing-military-assistance-to-russia
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u/Tripanes Mar 19 '23
A lot of that is going to be gold Russia is shipping down as payment
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u/Agreeable-Meat1 Mar 19 '23
If they fly in with gold, they're not flying out empty.
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u/luckeratron Mar 19 '23
It could very well be Putin's escape insurance as his electronic assets will likely be sanctioned.
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u/hjk813 Mar 19 '23
From the article, it does not seem that China directly supplies Russia with weapon. However, China can indirectly via North Korea and Iran. Who supplies Iran with semiconductor for their drones? China. And who has supplied Russian with drone? Iran.
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u/zepprith Mar 19 '23
Honestly I can see China playing both sides to make money. What happens in Ukraine doesn’t really matter to them to much.
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u/TROPtastic Mar 19 '23
This doesn't match with the Chinese government's documented behaviour. Xi Jinping has met several times in person with Putin, and never with Zelensky since the war started. This also extends to lower level Chinese officials.
China does much more trade with Russia than with Ukraine, and any desire to be seen as a neutral mediator is offset by a strong strategic need to prop up Russia as their new client state.
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u/Shawnj2 Mar 19 '23
Openly supporting Ukraine is effectively supporting the west so China is not going to do that
With that said that doesn’t mean they’re best buddies with Russia right now- Russia is a convenient idiot everyone is focusing on right now, but if they actually collapsed China would get a lot more scrutiny they don’t want so it’s in China’s interest to prop up Russia as long as they can before it fully collapses, and they also can’t officially support Russia’s invasion because supporting Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is supporting the idea that separatist parts of countries (Donetsk and Luhansk) deserve freedom, which China doesn’t want to do.
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u/Aerialise Mar 19 '23 edited Mar 19 '23
Just to be clear, being Chinese ammunition in no way confirms China sold it to them. North Korea, for example, have a whole bunch of Chinese kit. Well and truly premature to jump to that conclusion.
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u/Contagious_Cure Mar 19 '23
The whole of the Middle East and much of Eastern Europe have Chinese ammo lol. Heck your average Canadian gun hobbyist probably has a crate or two.
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u/tgrmst Mar 19 '23
This is non news with a sensationalizing headline to fuel anti China propaganda.
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u/Liesthroughisteeth Mar 19 '23
None of this is a surprise. China has been shipping out SKSs and AK47 copies and ammo by the container loads for decades. Canada is full of it for instance.
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u/Silver_Page_1192 Mar 19 '23
This whole article is just hoping people forget China made everything for around the last 4 decades.
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u/hieverybod Mar 19 '23
Ukraine is probably using Chinese ammo too. All those drones dropping grenades on Russians are 100% just Chinese dji drones bought on alibaba. China will supply anyone as long as they buy it
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u/BertDeathStare Mar 19 '23
DJI actually stopped selling in Ukraine and Russia because their drones kept being used in warfare, but people can just buy them in a neighboring country and ship them home themselves.
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u/Not_this_time-_ Mar 19 '23
And to my knowledge they are good quality. Many GI s brought aks from vietnam and they are perfectly functional
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u/IndependentCarpet115 Mar 19 '23
The few guns that Canadians can buy that Americans can't.
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u/nagidon Mar 19 '23
Cool, maybe they can get Colin Powell to wave a little vial of “Chinese ammunition” at the UNSC.
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u/alcosir Mar 19 '23
So ridiculous. Getting tired of the media playing up the U.S. and China rivalry.
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u/mrtwister134 Mar 19 '23
Manufactuting consent for war with china
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u/iannypoo Mar 19 '23
The world's largest military needs a perceived enemy. If we can't point fingers at the perceived bad guys, how else would we distract from the fact of living in a crumbling empire whose quality of life grows worse by the day?
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u/multiplechrometabs Mar 19 '23
They need to because once this war is over, they need something to talk about 24hrs of the day unless a new virus comes out.
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u/CheValierXP Mar 19 '23
I don't understand the outrage (not American nor European), isn't the U.S and European countries supplying Ukraine with weapons? Why is it bad if Russia buys from insert country here?
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u/PonnFarr111 Mar 19 '23
It's propaganda. No mention that Ukraine is using Chinese ammo or the U.S. ammo being used.. everywhere.
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u/ChineseButtSex Mar 19 '23
Not really that cut and dry. Chinese ammo and weapons turn up everywhere. The Taliban use the Type 56 rifle. I very much doubt China supplied them with it
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u/Kastrenzo Mar 19 '23
I wouldnt sound the alarm yet.
A general understanding of Soviet weapons would shed light on this.
Sometime between the early 70s and mid 80s, the Soviets replaced almost all of their small arms and other infantry level weapons with newer versions, and the older stuff was finally phased out.
When they stopped using the AKM and AK47, They largely stopped producing ammo for it, same goes for a lot of their Light machineguns, rocket launchers, grenades, etc.
China has been the world's largest supplier of early cold war Soviet weapons for decades, Almost all of the AKs the Vietnamese used, were of Chinese origin. Most of the ammo floating around that hasn't been fired yet, is of Chinese origin, so much so that Russia likely bought billions of rounds for their AKM stockpiles, decades ago...
this same rule should apply for any of the really old shit that Russian soldiers are using,
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u/Fast-Personality1348 Mar 19 '23
Use of American ammunition in Ukraine confirmed by China.
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u/IndependentCarpet115 Mar 19 '23
I watch Chinese news all the time, and oddly this kind of stuff is never part of the news cycle. They're very benign and nonconfrontational. The last time I saw them actually say anything anti-American was Yang Rui on CCTV about ten years ago.
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u/whiteycnbr Mar 18 '23
China makes everything
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u/Jericola Mar 20 '23
Most importantly China produces over half of the world’s steel. USA just 3%. The USA doesn’t have the capacity to produce significant more weapons without stopping most construction and private vehicle production….isn’t going to happen.
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u/GokuVerde Mar 19 '23
"Whether the ammunition was supplied by China remains unclear, "
Nice job fellas.
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Mar 18 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/drlecompte Mar 18 '23
China is on China's side. Russia is just a convenient indirect way to disrupt Europe and the US. They're happy to appeal to Putin's delusions of grandeur as long as it serves them, but they'll also drop him in a heartbeat.
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u/Grimvold Mar 19 '23
Rest assured they’re also taking Russia to the cleaners on whatever Russia is buying from them. IIRC Russia purchased some electronic component for weapon making a month or two ago and supposedly roughly 50% of the units were DOA.
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u/838h920 Mar 19 '23
Those were microchips if I remember correctly.
Producing them is very difficult the smaller you get and every manufacturer has a % of units that are dead. The better the process the less % end up dead.
China has huge issues because they don't have the know-how on how to make them so their production quality is horrendous. This is where this insanely high % dead comes from. However, Russia is sanctioned by the countries that do have the know-how on how to manufacture them better which is why Russia has no other option than to buy them from China.
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u/Grimvold Mar 19 '23 edited Mar 19 '23
Yup. And for that reason the CCP will sell them junk because they know they’re the only game in town. I know that electronic component supplies for China are reliant on other factors too, but I highly doubt that the CCP isn’t just feeding Russia their proverbial scraps and keeping the lion’s share of functioning components for themselves.
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u/838h920 Mar 19 '23
China is investing into microchip production. I'd honestly not be surprised if these are from prototype production lines China is testing and optimizing.
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u/Grimvold Mar 19 '23
Now there’s something I hadn’t considered before. But you’re probably right.
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u/jzy9 Mar 19 '23
Wait till you hear that Ukrainians also buying arms in the open market from China
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u/usernamesucks1992 Mar 18 '23
While I agree, all this means is that China is the world’s factory. They make and sell everything - from iPhones to ammunition.
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u/PiLLe1974 Mar 19 '23
I think that summarizes it.
China doesn't have a mission statement or morale when it comes to exports. They don't state anything like "our products are green" or "we only produce for NATO members".
Some exports are commissioned/outsourced by Europe and North America (since we expect low labor/product prices) and others are "surprisingly" orders from other countries.
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u/azuredota Mar 19 '23
We literally give Ukraine mortars, tanks and anti-aircraft artillery?
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u/CantoniaCustoms Mar 19 '23
The difference here is that China is not democratic so whatever they do is automatically unacceptable.
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u/IndependentCarpet115 Mar 19 '23
You can vote in China. The system is just different. You vote for a local representative and that's it. He then votes for a regional representative, the regional representative votes for a representative, and so on. You don't have to keep track of 50 different political contests on election day.
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u/dpahs Mar 19 '23
Wait til people learn where all phones are assembled or manufactured.
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u/Metal-Material Mar 19 '23
As much as I dislike both China and Russia, if this really is China aiding Russia I’m not sure this is really something we have grounds to take the moral high ground about. We’re financially and logistically helping Ukraine to further our own interests, and China is doing the same for Russia. It’s not like this would be out of character or a betrayal of the CCP to do.
Again I’m in no way advocating for Chinese involvement, I hate Putin and the CCP. However logistically helping a country in a war to further national interests has been a common practice since at least WW1, and the US plus every other Western nation has done so publicly in this conflict already. Obviously if true this should have ramifications on international relations, we don’t have to just sit here and encourage them in aiding Russia, but trying to take the moral high ground of “China is bad for getting involved in an international crisis” is a little hypocritical seeing as we openly do the same
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u/CantoniaCustoms Mar 19 '23
The difference here is we're the good guys so anything we do is good, anything the opponents do is bad.
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u/ErgonomicZero Mar 19 '23
Wait til you hear who supplies the US military large amounts of rare earth elements (alloys and magnets) for its fighter jets
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u/Luck_Is_My_Talent Mar 19 '23
Doesn't China make everything and sells to everyone?
We all know that Winnie is helping Putin since a longer war means Russia and Europe bleeds more so China can cover more markets, but the Chinese ammunition is a very weak proof in my opinion.
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u/dharda Mar 19 '23
The development of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq was also confirmed by the US.
The use of gas by Assad in Syria has also been confirmed by the US.
The blowing of the gas pipelines from Russia to Germany my Ukraine supporters has also been confirmed by the US.
The US can go fuck itself for all i care.
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u/supercyberlurker Mar 18 '23
Did they know because the brass started getting spots of rust on it?
That's what seems to happen to the Chinese 'stainless steel fixtures' I get.
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u/Sceptically Mar 19 '23
One thing to keep in mind with stainless steel is that it's more properly stain less steel. It'll still corrode eventually under the right circumstances, even if it's not cheap crap from China.
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u/inspired_apathy Mar 19 '23
This is tricky as both Ukraine and Russia bought weapons from China before the war broke out. You have to remember that there was a lot of trade between all 3 countries for over a decade.